Transcript

00:06
Qin En
Hi, I am Qin En. And this is the Parents in Tech podcast. Welcome to season one, where we interview mums who are technology company leaders based in Southeast Asia. We want to hear stories, hopes, challenges, and tips from moms who are raising kids while pursuing their career aspirations. To conclude this season, I thought there is no better person to speak to than my wife, Gladys. In this season finale, we talk about what the past year has been like as parents, how her childhood years shaped her views on parenting, and what money means - to us as parents, and to our children. Gladys is a mom in tech. She works in client services at The Trade Desk, an advertising tech company. Together with me, we are proud parents of a 15-month-old Gabrielle. Hi, Gladys. Welcome to the Parents in Tech show. To begin with, can you tell me a bit more about your family?

01:10
Gladys
Hi, I'm Gladys and I work in a client servicing role at The Trade Desk. A fun fact is that I am your wife and my husband, you, works in venture capital and we have a wonderful, very mischievous, naughty 14-month-old girl.

01:29
Qin En
We do. I thought what better way to end the first season of Parents in Tech than to interview my wife who is also a mum or a parent in tech. Gladys, can you tell us how would you explain your job to Gabby?

01:44
Gladys
I think it's really hard to explain my job to anyone, to be honest, including you. Since no one really understands what I do.

 

 

01:51

Qin En

It took me a while.

 

01:52

Gladys

I think you still don't. But anyway, I think it will only work when Gabby is a bit older and she's able to see advertisements on the internet. What I will tell her is, “Mommy helps her clients to place and run those ads across the internet.” And maybe show her some examples of how that looks like.

02:08
Qin En
Now the past year has been quite a roller coaster ride for us, welcoming Gabby to the world, figuring out this whole parenting journey. Maybe tell me what was one of the most memorable moments you had in the past year?

02:23
Gladys
Okay. I think there's a lot of memorable moments. But if I think about something that really struck me the most, I think it was the night when we came back from the hospital. I remember back then it was like 10:00 PM and we weren't really prepared as first-time parents. We were trying to feed Gabby and put her to sleep when we realized that she's really hungry. I think back then, I wasn't producing enough milk for her. So, she was just crying and crying nonstop. Unprepared parents as we were, we did not have any milk formula at home at all. I remember that you had the run out at 10:00 plus PM, which was actually really past bed time to go to the nearby supermarket to get formula. I think that was just really stressful because we weren't used to having a crying baby at home in the first place. It was the very first night. And she was crying nonstop and we didn't know what to do. It was just a really stressful situation.

03:19
Qin En
Yeah. I just remember how unprepared we were in general. That day we came back from the hospital. We had our confinement nanny. I remember we had no pots, no pans, no cooking oil, no salt, the basics of what you need to cook. I remember heading out and just spending a couple hundred dollars, just trying to get all these basic household gear in place. Like you said, I thought that one visit to NTUC in the evening would have been sufficient, but it turned out that I had to go again. But it was stressful. It was probably one of the most tiring days in my memory and interesting that you brought it up. Now as I think about it, I’m getting a little scared and glad we're past it. So Gladys since then, what is perhaps one thing you have learned about being a parent?

04:06
Gladys
It's so hard to really say it's one thing. I think it's got to be that mothers really need to learn how to juggle everything. I think before I became a mother, I never really knew what it was like and what being a parent looked like. Especially now as I'm back at work for almost a year already, it's like my life has totally changed. My life is pretty much just thinking about work and the rest of the time, thinking about how I can take care of Gabby. I think that is a really big change in lifestyle almost. And I feel there is very little time for myself.

04:50
Qin En
I think that's a good point about having time for yourself and just juggling everything. Maybe let's dial a bit back to before you were a mom. What did your schedule look like? And how has that changed?

05:03
Gladys
Oh, it has changed too much. I would say almost all the time I have, our schedule has pretty much changed. So in the past let's say, pre COVID, where I'll typically go to work at around 9 stay in office typically until about 7. Then most of the time, at least 2-3 times a week, there was a gym run involved. I love going to the gym and it's been something that I've been really active in since I was a teenager. So, exercise is just something I use to distress and a part of enjoyment as well. That's how it simply looked like. And then I'll have dinner with you, I guess, my family. In my free time, I guess watching shows. I'm quite a binge watcher as you would know. Maybe some free time, I'll use to read books, play games. I bought games with my sisters and all. So, that's how it looked. And now, I still try really hard to keep up with my exercise routine. But honestly now if I do two times or three times, it's really a bonus. And my stamina has really gone down a lot, but I guess I have to accept that there's a new me, embrace it and just do the best I can in that aspect. Well, after work, it's pretty much just caregiving duties almost. After work now, it's pretty much just spending time with Gabby. If I finish work a bit earlier, we'll try to bring her down for a walk. But that doesn't happen as much as we want to because work catches up on us. If you asked me what are my hobbies right now? I don't really know if I have time for any hobbies.

06:37
Qin En
We used to go to the gym together. For a period, when I was doing that freelance group exercise teaching, you would be my number one fan. Always there, I guess, at the same time with me to prepare for the class. But also attending different kinds of classes, going to the gym together and doing that at our own flexibility. But now with a daughter, there's a lot more considerations that we have. I remember the last class we went together, which is just about two weeks back, a spin class. We had to make plans to make sure that our daughter is taken care of while we are there. While it does sound like a big part of our life has changed, Gladys, I'm also curious to know what you think is the most rewarding or satisfying from this whole experience? And hopefully there is some.

07:22
Gladys
Oh, definitely. There's a lot.  I remember a few friends asked me this question, “How is it like going back to work? How is it being a mom almost?” Because I think amongst my friends, I'm probably the youngest one. I think we are the youngest. So, maybe the whole concept of parenting in our age group is still quite foreign. I think something that's really rewarding is just seeing all the milestones. Honestly, I wouldn't give up anything to see Gabby go through all the milestones. From her first flip, to her first crawl. And she used to do this, what do we call it? A mudskipper crawl. She passes through these milestones so fast. When we’re just like, “Oh my God. So cute. Mudskipper crawl.” And then in the next week, it changes. Like it's gone.

08:05
Gladys
And now she's just running around. We don't see her crawl anymore. I think it's really all these small moments and just experiencing it with her and going through that together. Because these are all the things that you won't be able to reverse the clock. You can stop the clock and revisit those moments again. Once they’ve passed, they’ve passed. So, I think I'm just really grateful. This work from home situation allowed me to go through more of these moments with her.

08:30
Qin En
Yeah. Like I was sharing in a previous episode, I think this is a once in a generation opportunity where we get to grow up with our kids because of this whole COVID situation and work from home. And these small moments, for me, they feel like happiness on tap. Whenever there's something that's tough at work or just anything, I’m just able to walk over, pick Gabby up, hug her. And it's like all the endorphins and all the feel-good feelings come in. Truly, I think being a parent, it's sometimes the most tiring, the most challenging, but also one of the most rewarding things. So Gladys, maybe I want to dial back a bit. Because when I first asked you about your most memorable moment, you did share a bit of challenges and stress around breastfeeding. That was something, of course, both of us went through. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. Because right now, there's a lot of literature. There's a lot of marketing. There's a lot of talks in parent groups that breastfeeding is number one. You've got to do it for your kid for at least six months. Maybe tell us what your journey was like. Now that you recently stopped and concluded it, what do you feel about this whole topic?

09:37
Gladys
Honestly, I feel like breastfeeding was a bit overly marketed in my opinion. From the moment Gabby was born, I think the hospital that were at, really advocated breastfeeding. I think that it's quite the standard in Singapore. I think in a lot of countries as well, many of these health care organizations recommend breastfeeding up to one or two years old, at least. Breastfeeding is a very nice experience. As a mother, to be able to provide that nutrition and to be your baby’s source of food. It's definitely something that there's a bond involved and that kind of closeness there. But I think that sometimes, it overly stresses moms out. So, I'm not the only one. I think like there were a couple of friends that I had who asked me like, “Oh, what was it like breastfeeding?” Or like, “How often do you have to pump?”

10:29
Gladys
Everyone knows that it's quite a tormenting journey almost. Every time I go into office, it's almost like I'm bringing a luggage back to work. There's just a lot of logistics involved, just planning. It's like, when you're going to school, you need to pack your school bag and make sure that you don't miss anything out. If not, it's just like, oh man, that's bad. So it's a tough journey. Ultimately, I would say for moms, do whatever you're comfortable with. Don't be overly stressed out about being their sole source of nutrition. If you need to use formula, do it. Weigh the pros and cons. If you think it's going to take a toll on your mental wellbeing and you cannot deal with it, then just mix it up.

11:10
Qin En
One thing that at least I learned after leaving the hospital was, you can actually ask the nurses to give your infant formula milk, to give you the much-needed rest. I remember when were at the hospital, when you were recovering, just delivered Gabby, every three hours the nurses will push Gabby.

 

11:29

Gladys

Oh, that was traumatizing.

 

11:30

Qin En

Yeah. And it's like, we didn’t know better. All the nurses give this impression that, “Oh, you have to do it.” And it was like, what? 45 minutes at least each time? And it was just so tiring. I really echo the advice to do what works for you. Now I'm going to ask this question. It's a high-risk question, but I would tell my producer not to edit it away. But what do you wish your husband understood about your role as a mom and your career ambitions?

11:59
Gladys
Okay. Maybe not you, but I think in general. A lot of husbands expect moms to be willing to take a step back after giving birth. I think that applies to some, but does not apply to some. I think personally for me, I mean, we did talk about it, right? Like how motherhood comes into play and weaves into our career ambitions. I think that moms have that added pressure sometimes that dads don't feel. Because we have the innate pressure to still want to do well at work, at least for me. And yet have another job outside of that, which is being a mom. It doesn't mean that me spending more time at home or moms spending more time at home means that we are willing to give up our career. Sometimes it's just really hard because it's a balancing game and how do we try our best to balance it.  Because I think a lot of us still want it all. We still want to excel in our career. Yes, we want to spend time with our child. But if you ask us, are we really willing to give up our career ambitions for our child? I don't know if that's an easy question to answer.

13:13
Qin En
What do you think dads should do more of or less off given what you have learned? I guess that also applies to me. So, I'm taking advice from you now.

13:23
Gladys
I think we talked about it. I think it's definitely just balancing out our ambitions. And as parents, if we both want to be involved, then there is always a season for each of us. I think for us, obviously, you just changed your job. So, it requires more attention and you do need to spend more hours on the job to just build up your career. So as a couple, we just need to learn to understand and to accommodate each other’s seasons. Now it may be yours, but maybe next time when I decide that, okay, there is a really exciting opportunity that I want to go for that will involve, me maybe taking a step up or having less time to spend with the kid, then that's maybe when the husband needs to take a step back and just acknowledge it like, okay, this is the wife’s time. Because husband and wife should work in partnership. We have to think about how we can make our family work and still be able to pursue our ambitions at different seasons.

14:31
Qin En
Just hearing you say that, makes me reflect on how at least for myself in the past year, I think there've been many times where it's taking things for granted and making certain assumptions without even talking about them. For example, the one thing that actually inspired me to start this podcast, it's the realization of how I always felt like I wanted to be an active dad, an active parent. But there were certain assumptions or certain behaviors that I did that just showed that it wasn't really the case. The case in point, for some of our audience who are listening, we only have help in office hours from about 9 to 5. And always the tough period is between 5:00 PM to 7:00 PM when we don't have help, work is still on and someone needs to take care of our daughter. I realized that the de facto would be you, Gladys, who takes care. More often than not, I just go into the room and do my work and assume that she would be well taken care of. So, I think that's something that on reflection, I realized I take for granted. That just because you want to spend time with her, with Gabby, doesn't mean that I can totally be hands off about that. But I think I'm glad to have that realization. I'm glad that we also had those conversations. If anything, I've learned from the 10 plus episodes I've done, it's truly about conversations and communication. If let's say today, you're sitting next to a leading expert in parenting for whatever topic, what would you ask him or her?

15:57
Gladys
The thing that comes to mind is how do we raise a secure kid?

16:02
Qin En
Secure. Okay. Tell me more.

16:04
Gladys
We did talk about that book before when we saw that book about raising a kid in a secure environment. I think especially in Singapore, there is a lot of pressure, especially in the childhood years. The default is that children go through this really strict regime of education. I think that's changing now definitely. But I think there's still that kind of mindset, there's always that tiger Singaporean mom or dad label that people tend to slap on us. I think a lot of that security of the kid comes from how well he or she performs at school. So, both our parents are so different. You definitely came up from the tiger parent environment, but my parents are more chill. So, how do we make our child feel that their self-worth is not tied to their capabilities, whether it's at work or at school? Because I think it's so easy to just go through that. For example, now, if we're not doing well at work, because work takes up 80% of our time, then sometimes we feel like, oh, we're not doing well. Or we're not a good person or we're not performing. I think that also stems from a lot of insecurity because we peg our own self-worth to our work or our education and how well we're doing. I think that shouldn't be the case. How do we inculcate that security, whether it comes from love from your parents, whether it comes from the environment you grew up with, how do you actually create an environment that tries to promote and makes your child feels secure about themselves. And know that they’re loved almost regardless of the circumstances.

17:41
Qin En
One thing that comes to mind about raising a secure child, I believe it starts with having a somewhat secure parent. A lot of times there's insecurity. It stems from that comparison that starts with parents. Children, I believe they have quite a blank slate. As parents, we all have insecurities. So, I'm going to ask you. What is perhaps an insecurity you experienced and how you went about overcoming it?

18:06
Gladys
I think for me insecurity is, I think, having self-worth pegged to my studies. I wasn't a bad student. I think I was an above every student actually. But through my life, I was fortunate enough to get into many of the good schools in Singapore. Even though I wasn't above average student in school, I was pretty much counted as one of the dumbest kids in school. Also, because I was a sports direct school admission. So, I got in through my sports achievements. There were labels in school that people always think that all the people who are going through sports are not as bright. I think that's an insecurity that I had, even though I was good in other aspects. But the Singaporean education, especially at a young age, you always think that you care about what people think about you a lot. That insecurity, I guess, came from that. And if you were to ask me how I overcame it, I don't know if I have overcome it. I think that a lot of this insecurity follows us all the way as we grow up and even into adulthood. So, I guess it's trying to cope with it and trying to also tell myself that your self-worth is just not all about your job. There are other aspects of who you are as a person. There are just so many aspects about us. It is not just which role are you in or what company are you working for. I think sometimes in our context, too much emphasis is placed on that.

19:28
Qin En
We live in a very brand conscious environment, whether that's quite literally the goods you carry or even the companies you work for, the titles you have. And now as parents, what your children carry or what school they go to. Hopefully that's changing, but it's slow. And I think, like you said, there's a lot of things that we carry through, a lot of times not very consciously. It's interesting to hear that. What's perhaps one parenting tip that you heard, that perhaps you would accept or reject from your friends, from your peers, from people that you know?

20:01
Gladys
It's not really a tip. But I guess it's just something that I learned. Because I think a lot of times I try and pick out areas that I think are good. When I look at my own parents or I look at other parents, I sometimes subconsciously try and identify what I think works and what I think doesn’t and how I can learn from it. So, I think something that I really want to try and be conscious about as a parent is not to compare my kid with others. I remember when I was young, we had this dance performance that we put up. And I remember very vividly. I was only six years old, but there was a mom that told her kid, “Can you please dance better? You have to dance, shake and groove as well as her.” And ‘her’ meant me.

20:46
Qin En
Wow.

 

20:47

Gladys

Yeah. Even at six years old, the mom was telling her kid like, “Hey, can you buck up and follow her?” And I'm like, is that really necessary?

 

20:55

Qin En

There’s no award. There’s no prize.

 

20:57

Gladys

Yeah. There’s no award. It’s just a performance. We're just grooving to the music mindlessly as six-year-olds on the stage. I don't even know why we were dancing. But even then as a kid, I'm sure she probably is just really happy to be on stage performing for her mom. And her mom is just there telling her to buck up. I hope that I wouldn't be that mom or be that parent that always compares my kid, asking her to do better or why is she not as accomplished, why is she not as good. I hope that I don't go there.

21:24
Qin En
Well, this is a new story that I've never heard before. It's really interesting. But it shows how something that happened more than 20 years ago, still leaves such a deep impression. It's almost like you want to focus on things that really matter for your children and not make such a big deal out of it. Maybe tell us what is one thing that you learned from your parents that you want to take over to be a parent today? Because I think like you said, there are a lot of things that our childhood shapes. So, what is that one thing that you think your parents did really well and you will love to continue almost, so to speak, passing it on to the next generation?

22:01
Gladys
I think my parents have really sacrificed a lot. My mom, especially. When my mom was a homemaker, she took a job after my younger sister came along. So, there were three of us. I think something that she did really well was to try and equip us with the best education and environment that we could possibly have. Basically, to pave the way as much as possible to help us succeed in the Singaporean context. In the Singapore context, schools do matter. Because I think anywhere, when you go into a school, I won't say bad or good school, but certain schools have better environments. I know this is a very debatable topic, but this is just my opinion. Company really helps to affect a person's character growing up, especially in secondary school years. So, I think my mom really helped to try and find ways for us to get into the secondary schools where there is the good education system or there is affiliation. I think that really helps because that helped us to get into a better company and just paved the way for us. Even thinking a lot about how we can prove ourselves, making sure that we had the right resources. So, we came from middle, slightly upper-class family, but it's not that we have a lot of resources to do whatever we want. So even when it came to tuitions and finding the right ones with whatever resources we can, my mom would try her best to find it for us. It may not be the most expensive or hit tuition center in town. We never went for all those, doing a lot of research, getting referrals to find us the right teachers that suited us.

23:50
Gladys
So, all of us actually had really different teachers because we had different learning styles. For me, my learning style was pretty much as-it-goes kind. I didn't really like too many tuition teachers. My mum would just hire one tutor, like a generalist tutor and just teach me math, chemistry, and physics together. Somehow it worked for me because I just liked the flexibility that adapted to my learning style. But for my sisters, they were really focusing whichever subjects they wanted to focus on. So, they had really dedicated teachers that came, let’s say for Economics or English. I think there was something that my mom did really well in helping us to tailor those different learning styles based on our characters.

24:31
Qin En
Yeah. It sounds like she paved the way but differently. It's not just because, let's say your elder sister had gone a certain path, therefore Gladys, you as the second child must definitely go the same path, get the same set of tutors, go through the same courses. The intentionality behind it sounds like that's something that really stood up to you. And it was something that you appreciated. I'm curious, were there times that you felt that it was overbearing and you wanted to do it you way like, “Mum, don't help me”? Were there moments like these?

25:02
Gladys
Oh, for sure. I mean, especially as a teenager, whatever your parents asked you to do, you don't want to do.

25:05
Qin En
So, what’s one example? Tell us one of the stories.

25:08
Gladys
I remember, not even as a teenager, I think when I was in primary school, typical Singaporean family tells to learn piano as a girl, or maybe even boys used to learn piano. I really hated the piano teacher. I remember I would find all sorts of excuses not to do her work. Because especially the theory, because I really loved playing the piano, but I hated doing the theory. To me as a child, I really hated the times when the teacher just forced me to memorize all these Italian terms. To me, this doesn’t go. Because I need to understand something. I'm not going to memorize something and put it on a paper. That’s why I cannot make it in the Singapore education system. I was just really irritated because my mom just kept forcing me to go under this teacher no matter what. So, once I acted out and I hid and stayed in the toilet when the teacher came. And eventually, they couldn't get me out. The teacher just went home. So, I skipped the class.

25:57
Qin En
Wow. I guess there are moments like these, especially growing up. I guess now as parents, we have to get ready that this might happen to us. Now I want to shift topics and talk about something that I didn't really get a chance to speak with my other guests, because it's a sensitive topic. But you being my wife, I get all the benefit. How do you view money from the perspective of parenting?

26:21
Gladys
My dad likes to say this phrase. He always says in Chinese, but I would translate it in the English. Basically, he’s saying that, “Money is not everything. But without money, there's a lot of things that you can do.” Which is true I think, in life and in parenting also. If I were to just come up with an example, things like tuition. I think it's not compulsory that every child should have tuition. But sometimes children need that. And having that resource gives you that flexibility and the option to do it. Similar for hiring help to take care of kids. If you have the resources and you're fortunate enough, then you have that flexibility to spend money to almost buy time for yourself. I think it's a good resource to have, but I wouldn't want to be overly reliant on it. I don't want to end up just paying to outsource everything I can.

27:18
Qin En
Okay. Let's talk a bit about that, paying to outsource. Because there's always one element of you wanting to outsource the things that just consume your time and energy and just make you so drained. At the same time, sometimes those activities are what help to build memories and relationships. So what are the things for example, that you will not outsource?

27:39
Gladys
I don’t think it's black and white. For us, we outsource a little bit here and there. For you, you always have that outsourcing mindset. So, we always debate. We agree to debate on that. I don't think there's anything that I really wouldn't outsource on, but I will say I am against outsourcing anything above 50%. I think that would make me uncomfortable because I still want to be present.

28:04
Qin En
Above 50% for parenting. Not household chores for example? Or does that include that?

28:12
Gladys
So, household chores are interesting because I believe it's also important to do household chores, as I would have told you many times. So, Qin En believes in outsourcing everything that we can.

 

28:23

Qin En

Not everything.

 

28:24

Gladys

Almost.

 

28:25

Qin En

Yeah.

 

28:26

Gladys

Like for me, I grew up with a domestic helper in my house. But even though we had that helper, we still try and do chores sometimes. Small things like clearing out plates, putting them in the sink. Even now, we do have a helper, but I make sure that not everything is just left to her. If I eat my own fruits, I cut my own fruits. I wash my own plate. I don't just leave it on the table. I think that's important, especially as parents. Because you don't want your children to just think that there is someone to clean up after them. So, I think that actually ties in with parenting.

29:01
Qin En
Yeah. That idea of responsibility. I remember watching this Facebook video where some family designed a sink and a tap that was for their two-year-old toddler, she would learn how to wash her own dishes from a young age. I don't know whether we can do that because we are living in a rental place, but certainly food for thought on that. And maybe back to the money topic. I heard your perspective on what it's like for you. How do you want to teach the concept of money or the value of money or some of the principles to Gabby? What are some of those lessons you want her to understand about money?

29:38
Gladys
I think she needs to understand the value of money. That probably comes from a really young age. Honestly, I think it's a struggle because the question I have is how do I teach Gabby the value of money, but not make her think that everything has got to do with money? I don't know if I'm explaining it, but for example, I can imagine if one day she asked me, let's see if she wants to buy a doll house. So, I've got to explain to her like if her doll house is going to cost me $50, how much is this $50? Mummy and daddy, we are working and we have to work for this money, and explain to her the value of this. But I'm conscious that might make her just tie everything back to dollars and cents. I also hope that doesn't really happen. So, it's that.

30:29
Qin En
Yeah. It's almost that balance where she understands the value for money, but does not become obsessed by it. Well, I guess we have a bit of time to figure that out as we go along. To wrap up today's session, Gladys, if there's one lesson you learned as a parent in tech, or perhaps just a parent, what is it?

30:47
Gladys
I think it's that we need to be flexible. I think flexibility is one because at every stage of a child's life, they are very different. They have different needs. And we need to tailor our parenting style. I think in the first probably six months of Gabby, it was just caregiving mode. So, I didn't really find myself as a parent. I'm just finding myself on how can I give her sustenance to life. Then now as she is starting to be aware of what's going on, like how do we slowly teach her small things like what does it mean when you pull someone's hand? Or you can't do that because it's painful. We have to explain to her. I think there are different seasons and we just got to learn. It's almost like a job, right? When you're in a fast-moving industry like tech, every day is different. You could almost compare it to a kid. They have different needs at every point in their life. So, how do we stay adaptable and flexible to be able to identify what they need and also learn fast enough how to help them and nurture them as they grow up.

31:57
Qin En
Makes sense. I like that recognizing the different seasons, the different phases they're in and being willing and open to change with that. That's also something I am taking to heart and listening. Not just se podcast host, but also as your husband. To wrap up today's session, how can our listeners especially moms connect with you?

32:15
Gladys
You can connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Gladys Kee.

32:19
Qin En
Cool. That’s all for today. Thanks so much for joining me on the Parents in Tech show, Gladys. Now it’s tome for us to go…

 

 

32:25

Gladys

It’s time for lunch.

 

32:26

Qin En

Exactly. I was gonna say, let's go have lunch. Thanks for listening to the Parents in Tech podcast with me, your host, Qin En. We hope you were inspired on how to raise kids and build companies. To catch up on earlier episodes or stay updated with upcoming ones, head over to https://www.parents.fm to join our community of parents in tech. There, you can also drop me a question, idea, feedback or suggestion. Once again, the website is https://www.parents.fm. That's all for this episode, folks. See you next time.