From Work to Home Ep 2: Establishing Support Systems, Being Upfront, and Learning Love Languages with Chek Lim

[00:52] Introducing today’s guest, Chek Lim
[01:40] Understanding Stripe
[03:02] Joining Stripe as a family man
[07:04] Realizing Stripe is a family-friendly company
[11:29] Managing family relationships during travel
[12:12] Working from home
[15:25] Focusing on the small things
[19:20] On handling discipline
[21:11] Keeping in touch with the tech industry
[22:16] Book recommendations
[23:08] Changes that come with being a parent
[26:40] Connect with Chek Lim

TRANSCRIPTION

[Qin En 00:00] 

Hi, I am Qin En, and this is the Parents in Tech Podcast. 

In this special collaboration series with Stripe, the financial infrastructure platform for businesses, I speak with parents at Stripe on how they create work-life integration and balance their career ambitions with family aspirations.

[Qin En 00:30]

In this episode, I speak with Chek from Stripe Customer Success and Payment Optimization, APEC team. Chek is a father to three children, aged 7, 6, and 4. 

Hey, Chek! Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here today and to begin with, could you tell us a bit more about your family?

[Chek 00:52] 

Sure. My name is Chek and I actually have three lovely young girls.

The oldest is Faith Lim. She's coming to seven years old, primary one this year. The second is Hope. She's going to turn six before any of this, she’s a year-end baby. So she's the middle child. And my youngest is Karis. She's the CST one. I call it [inaudible].

[Qin En 01:14]

Oh, very good. Thank you for taking time off to do this.

[Chek 01:21]

No, not at all. You've given me the perfect excuse to dump my kids to my wife or at all.

[Qin En 01:26]

Wonderful, wonderful. So, Chek, how do you explain Stripe to your children?

[Chek 01:30] 

Ooh. Okay. Actually, Qin En, do you understand what Stripe is, just out of curiosity?

[Qin En 01:38] 

Well, payments… that's it.

[Chek 01:40] 

Starting with the layman, like anyone on the street, right? Let's say if you order something on grab or you order like delivery or even like pay for parking. Stripe, it's that behind-the-scenes magic. Payments from your credit card or any other local payment method through the merchant on record. So how I like to explain this to my kids is one of their favorites.

Next is McDonald's… the chicken is not good, or like the hash browns in the morning. And sometimes when I'm lazy, I do have three girls, and my wife does a Grab food delivery, and an uncle will come with Grab food and hang it on the door. 

And my daughter, the eldest, will often ask me, “Hey, how come you don't have to pay that person? Are you being mean?” I said, “No, because something magical is happening behind the scenes that help them move money from our bank account to the uncle, through Grab food or delivery.” 

And I painted that, that kind of magic is Stripe. So I used this analogy to kind of explain to her the magic behind the payments of Stripe.

[Qin En 02:35]

Wonderful. I like it. So it's not that you're being mean or being miserly. It's just that it's already been done. 

Beautiful. Beautiful. Chek, now, let me take you back a couple of years, when you first joined Stripe, where were you and your family at that point? And I believe you joined in 2018, right?

This was pre-COVID. Where I assume there was travel, we're going to get to that, but take me back to where were you in your family life when you first joined Stripe?

[Chek 03:02]

Sure. I joined Stripe around mid-2018 and just when the process of the interviewing was about to wrap up, my youngest kid Karis was due to be born in about one and a half to two months' time.

So it was really intense. From consideration of a job career to search opportunity. And I think something really struck up to me like it was really vivid to me than if I recollect it now. Because Stripe does take a lot of pride in terms of the interview process. I still have four or five rounds ago and preferably I was to be flown through the San Francisco HQ for the interview.

And when I got to know that I was really excited by the same time, there was a timeline consideration. If I flew and my wife gave birth and then I won't be there. That’s kind of like, I'll be kicked off from the house forever, yeah. But I think what really kind of like reach back out to me in terms of the grace and really the flexibility of the Stripe HR team then. The recruiter told me, don't worry, we'll make it happen for you.

So they brought the process for it by two weeks. So that I could fly in my immediate available weekend, which was the coming weekend. And I flew, I got to San Francisco interview on Monday. I flew back on Monday night. You can say that pillow cream from the flight hasn't kind of like eased for my face [yet].

And it was like in Singapore, but really it was kind of like the awfulness of the process that really impressed me. So I was glad I had an authentic opportunity, but it was part of this process that really kind of shaped mine and motivation that, wow, this is a company that understood parents. And the demands and challenges that face as early, kind of like.

[Qin En 04:30] 

Well, thanks for sharing that. That's a lot to unpack there. So let me start with the first idea of changing jobs when you knew that your wife was expecting what led you to even consider that, because probably there will be a fair bit of life change. 

There’s going to be a new born to deal with it. What was going through your mind when you even started this exploration journey to consider career at Stripe.

[Chek 04:50] 

I think it was really the excitement of the opportunity before me. How I got to know Stripe to be really honest was a truly magic moment. When I was making payments on an app that is very popular for ride-sharing and delivery — we all know that. 

And what happened then was that I put in just my email or mobile number and viola, an SMS was sent to me for validation. And the payment went through within less than three to five seconds. So I was really blown away. Like, what is this company? What was this magic that’s happening? And I thought I just saw Stripe and coincidentally, I had a college contact who was working at Stripe. And they were asking me if I was interested to pursue an opportunity in FinTech coming from a tech background, then in 2018, FinTech was one of the most exciting industries that professionals would like to consider developing.

And I happened to be very blessed to be aware of this opportunity. And therefore I decided to go for it. But from a family perspective, of course, there were some considerations with my wife because my third one was coming. But the end of the day, we decided that you know, well, I wasn't young and I wasn't going to turn any younger.

And if there was the right opportunity to pursue and hopefully the organization was to be very supportive of parenthood, I've made a leap of faith. And I was really glad I did it looking back four years ago.

[Qin En 06:04] 

Okay. And then, so you decided to go on this and you say you had four to five more rounds to go for earlier. So you got to talk me through, do you remember how many rounds of interviews and selections you actually had to go through at Stripe?

[Chek 06:16]

Oh, I kind of can’t expose that much because that process has changed, but I would say back then in the early days, we definitely had to interview for more than 10 rounds.

Yeah, I had my last four or five rounds in San Francisco. I can give you a bit of context. Back then, Stripe was really a startup. I was considered a 30 or higher. So the first 30% into the Singapore office and being such a slow and lean team, they didn't have everyone involved for their row interview.

Because some of the functions were part of eight quarters, right? So they need the right people on board to interview. And back then, while I believe Google meets or was it Blue Jeans were fairly popular, preferably for early hires in the Singapore office, it's better to do it in person to make sure that it's not just about hiring the right talent, but that talent will also find that it's compatible fit for the organization as well. So this is kind of like the background.

[Qin En 07:04] 

Got it. And before you started this process, did you already know about how family-friendly and support Stripe posts, or was during that interview process that you started to get these clues?

[Chek 07:19]

I would say it's a mix of both. When I was first being engaged in the process or Stripe, the first round screening was actually by a fellow teammate who was a young parent.

So that was very helpful, they gave really candid perspectives or what I should be mindful of when coming into Stripe. And she gave me a shirt because I think she is a young parent and one of the many, many to come. [It] really gave me confidence that I would have appeared to lean on for support often.

When I came into entering Sprite, thereafter, something that I'm still really pleased, and really proud of us as the company culture today is that we have what we call communities like formal communities, recognizing the company with community leads per se. And one of the communities is actually Parenthood.

[Chek 07:58]

Parents have this community, whether it's informal slack channel, where we hang out, or we have activities like a “Stripe-bring-your-kids-to-office work,” kind of be being organized, to really ensure that parents have the right support and pillows to connect with each other. So actually, when I first started, I was immediately added by my peer into the power hook channel and a policy that Hey, I'm Chek and I have a pre-Chekmates.

Like young Chekmates, and everyone's like, “Welcome. How are they?” You know, like even like giving advice, because they knew that one of my eldest kids then was going to enter “kindie.” And for those who stay in my part of the neighborhood, you were like, oh, you should Chek this place out, et cetera. So it's almost like the informal forum within the Stripe community that you could lean on for parenthood support.

[Qin En 08:37]

Got it. And earlier you mentioned about the candid perspectives. I think one thing that defines the usefulness and candidness, I find it's not just sharing about the good, but also almost like the potential pitfalls to avoid. So do you recall for the young parent who was sharing her experience with you, what was some of the advice or things to look out for?

[Chek 08:57]

Sure. One of the very useful advice she gave me is that because we are an American headquartered company, it’s inevitable that you're going to take a low cost in the morning to have the kind of like communication set up with your counterparts. But she told me a very useful piece of advice is that because in Sprite we do a very transparent culture. Once you block out your calendar for a strict do not disturb, I'm picking up my kids or dropping off my kids, people are very respectful of that in general. 

And there was one best that she gave me. Be upfront that you’re a parent and what your life and your routines around your parenthood meets, and people will understand, appreciate that.

So I think that was free, really forthcoming because, um, at least from my perspective, I don't think every company necessarily does that by telling you upfront that don't put your parents or kids' needs first and let them know that you need to work around these things, per se.

[Qin En 09:46]

Got it. And so I gotta ask you this Chek, right? Because I mean now you're established, you're solid in your career at Stripe. You're known. But the problem or the challenge I find that a lot of parents face, it's when you start a new job, there's almost a need to prove yourself all over again. You need to demonstrate that you're competent. You are collaborative, you can be there, and you are a team player.

Did you face any of those anxieties or concerns when you first joined Stripe, especially with the newborn kid in town?

[Chek 10:13]

I'll be lying if I said I didn’t. Natural human instinct is definitely for more and jaundice in Singapore terms, right? Like slight anxieties. But I think it's how you manage them. What really helps is that one, my manager was also a new parent herself and also had a community parents who gave me assurance that if you do need to take time off, which Stripe policy does support for childcare and emergency time off, there is that flexibility for you to do so. 

And that really assures that I can still do my work well while entering my family needs that they can. In the reverse, it's also how I manage it.

So I speak to my wife in terms of how we need to cover for each other, in terms of flexibility, to take care of the kids. If one of us needs to be at a very important meeting or event person.

[Qin En 10:56]

Yep. Yep. Okay. So building on that, tell me about the travel schedule you had pre-COVID when you joined Stripe.

[Chek 11:02]

Well, I used to travel maybe at least once per quarter, specifically to the Asia Pacific, like Greater China, per se.

Usually, each trip will be at least five to seven days because we try to compare and cover as much as we can, depending on the itinerary per se.

[Qin En 11:17]

Okay. And was that challenging? I mean, once a quarter doesn't sell too bad, especially in, I guess it's not every week or every day, but tell me how you manage your family arrangements during those periods of travel. Right?

[Chek 11:29] 

Family support is important. It helps that my wife decided to become a full-time homemaker during that period. So that was helpful, but even one mommy cannot manage three kids. So I'm very, very grateful to my in-laws and my parents who I can invite over on a need-to basis. So that definitely helped a lot, but there's also the flexibility of even before COVID stopped it.

Let's say if you flew back on an early morning flight back to Singapore, it's the flexibility that the managers’ instruct have in terms of working from home. So I need not necessarily come to the office. I could continue working from home and then optimize that time in with my kids per se. Once I touched back in Singapore.

[Qin En 12:06]

Got it. So that was pre-COVID. Now let's fast forward to CVOVID. Working from home, three young kids. Tell me, what was it like?

[Chek 12:12]

Like this is really tough. This is probably the most intense co-working experience I've ever had. I think every parent faces that it's really the demands and distractions of finding a dedicated space while ensuring that you are not distracted or disturbed by your kids.

And it's really hard because I live in a kind of like a three-bedroom apartment. And if you work out the mathematics, I do need to have a coworking space where my background is a very cute wallpaper of cartoon characters. And when I take a serious cost, it's kind of a nice conversation opener.

And then your kids will be like jumping in front of the zoom screen, typing on your laptop, or behind you asking for help to fix the jigsaw puzzle or figure out which color crayon looks better on Elsa’s dress in their drawing per se. It's very distracting, but I must say working from home has also taught me the idea of being really flexible to switch between contexts.

One thing I really appreciate at office I guess it's just understanding. In general parents who have gone through COVID, who have kids take pressure zoom meetings. In the beginning, I was getting nervous. I would have to say, “Sorry, that was unintended.” But people just laughed it off. I find it a really nice way for people to find out more about you personally.

[Qin En 13:18]

Um, so I guess thinking back, what is perhaps… it sounds everything — it's great and a positive, which is really good, but what is one thing that you might have done differently? Looking back at the whole COVID slash work from home period. If you had to do it all over again.

[Chek 13:31]

I think drawing the time boundaries. And this is really a personal kind of like discipline, like work should end by a certain time if you finished a day's demands, but because it is online, people are also online.

You tend to forget that what doesn't end in many across out from your working study room or working bedroom, work is really work per se. And that was really tough for me. Like in the beginning, I will find myself calling for longer hours. It was just convenient and accessible for you to continue working.

[Chek 14:00] 

Whereas if you had that kind of like office setup, the commute often is kind of like that this disconnection stage before you transfer back into the family environments. Yeah.

[Qin En 14:10] 

Correct, but so setting clear boundaries and the fact that, as you mentioned earlier, right, you're working for an American company.

You have to take calls at least outside of working hours, right? Whether it's at night or in the morning over there. So tell me a bit more about the support network that you get at work to help make all of this work.

[Chek 14:26]

I think the support network is, I guess, first and foremost, understanding from your manager and your team and my team per se, we're very forthcoming about, for example, the childcare routines we have, or even like the demands we have, like, it's really common.

And I would say nothing unusual. If a colleague of mine has kids pings the channel, “Hey, tomorrow morning, I can’t be at the morning call because I need to be early for a Parent-teacher session,” or sometimes I'll ping that my kid is sick. I need to just be away from two to 3:00 PM just to bring my kid to the PD. Just to ensure that he or she is well, we do that upfront so that people know what's happening. If I can be reached and people are also supportive to cover you. So I think the covering aspect, in terms of the willingness to even just be there to ensure your duties are fulfilled on my own so that you do not worry is really, really something that I am grateful for.

[Qin En 15:16]

Okay. Yep. Got it. And do you remember any particular advice that you got from the fellow parent colleagues that you found to be quite helpful and quite memorable?

[Chek 15:25] 

I would say specific advice or like even suggestions or reminders is really… Like the thing is — end of May, right? I think about two, three months ago, my whole family got COVID.

My youngest got it. She became a super spreader and I taught, I had tiger blood and I wouldn't get it. So the whole family was down and it was a nice surprise that my teammates actually sent over something nice. Like I believe it was frozen yogurt or something like that. I wish it was wine —  [but it was something] to just cheer up the family.

So it really says a lot in terms of warm and genuine support that they have.

[Qin En 15:58]

Nice. That's really, really beautiful. It's just these small things that matter so much, right? Like frozen yougurt. In any other day, it's just a small gift, but truly, I think it shows how much they care and that's really, really wonderful.

The truth, Chek, is that being a parent has its tough days. Days where you want to tell your help, work is calling, the kids are calling. How do you manage those difficult days and moments?

[Chek 16:20] 

It's really challenging to find that balance between expanding your best for both work and family. Most of us, especially myself.

We often expand our best energies at work. And by the time you get home or you want to spend that time with family, you run out of the left tank that you went to. My wife keeps me accountable. I think that's helpful. Reminds me to take a deep breath in to try to disconnect and remind myself that this is family time.

And she even is the one who comes to me and takes away my handphone so that I don't have easy access to my personal social network on a phone for on work so that I can focus on my family. 

So I think being disciplined or self-aware and having an accountability partner is very important. The second one is, if there's something I learned as a parent, especially, and the best teacher for this is my wife.

She reminds me to remember what the love languages of my kids are. So I'm not sure if anyone has read this book called Gary Chapman's Five Love Languages. Like love and be expressed in touch, time, acts of service, for example, gifting, as well as encouragement through words. 

And I tried to remember what the love language of my kids are so that if I do spend time with them, having disconnected from work, I try to express myself in that genuine care towards them.

[Qin En 17:30]

Yeah, I love that you brought up the five love languages because I find it so relevant and even how we receive and give in terms of love languages can be so different. So talk me through how you discovered the love languages of your children. Because I feel like for adults, it's a little easier.

You get to articulate it. You get to give feedback. With children, it’s not so straightforward. How did that look?

[Chek 17:52] 

I don't think it's so straightforward. I wasn't telling my wife that her love language is all five. Yeah. I think it shows a bit more maybe as they turn older… their process of one and a half second-year stage. My eldest daughter, I noticed that she's more touchy-feely. 

Of all the three daughters, she's the only one who would come and sit with me even at this age, just to get like a daddy hug or something like that. So I presume it's touch, for example. So I think these are the signs that come up. 

My youngest one, for example, she actually likes words of affirmation or encouragement. So whenever she does something that she's really smug or proud about, she comes to me like, “daddy, what do you think about it?”

Yeah. So I think it's really picking up the cues. I think at that age, regardless of what language, you cannot underestimate the importance of quality time, what is time just to play or understand what they're doing at a moment of time to be in the moment with them. I think that to me is the most important kind of universal love language at this stage of my kids.

[Qin En 18:46]

Yeah. I couldn't agree more than that. Right? They just need us to be there. And to be fully present. So I really can relate to the partner. Your wife comes over to take away the phone. Mine does the same too, but she catches me. Right. Try to spend time with the kids, while to multitask on the phone. I think we're all guilty of that, but it's good that we have that Chek and balance.

All right. Chek. So with three young children and dad figure, there's always the association that the dad is the one who brings discipline, especially in moments when they are not here. So, the first question is, are you the disciplinarian at home? Or is that your wife? and collectively as a family, what does discipline look like?

[Chek 19:21]

I think we take turns. Like there’s no fixed disciplinarian. It really depends on the moment and the circumstances that each of us plays a different role and it's not necessary. Sometimes, I think it's really bad to become bad cops together, depending on the severity of the situation. So I would say that's no fix all the secrecy, but we do have something that we practice in our household that is, if someone really does something wrong, we decide who will be the one to give the lecture.

The other person will be the one to also who the person is, the site leader, and give encouragement and ask the kids to reflect. I think this is something we try to do. My wife often has what we call an instrument there's to ensure an this obedience, we do exercise. It’s actually a wooden spoon.

So we don't use caning. We use a wooden spoon where if a kid does something wrong, we tap it gently on their hand. Not that it hurts to the extent that it's painful, but it's just a reminder that you did something really wrong. And it's just to discipline you to remind you that this is something that you should not be doing. So please reflect upon it per se. So this is something like the Chek family tradition, I guess. A wooden spoon thing passed down.

[Qin En 20:25] 

Wonderful. Thanks for sharing that. It's nice that you guys think of discipline as the way that is not just to inflict pain, but it's really a learning opportunity for them to understand what they did wrong.

So, Chek, another thing I was very curious about, I guess, drawing back to the intersections of family and work is. Tech moves very quickly and probably in FinTech has moved radically faster over the past five years. I'm sure you've seen that change now. How do you stay updated with everything that's happening while being there for your family?

Because work is work. You finish your work, but I think a lot of the learning happens outside of work, right. By finding out what's going on in the industry by spending time at events, especially pre COVID. So how does that staying on top of things look like for you while balancing what you have back at home?

[Chek 21:11] 

Each and every individual has their own preferences in learning to be in touch with the industry.

For me, it's a lot of reading and podcasting. I love listening to certain podcasts or like certain publications, like pyments.com, which is a popular FinTech journal. So I try to make time for that. But if anything is really for me covering up intentional time so that you can be focused in terms of catching up on these kinds of industry developments.

So I try to, I'm not always successful for example, on a weekly basis on Wednesday, for example, like 5:30 to 6:00 PM. I cover learning time. Well, I try not to do work if there are no urgent issues or my wife is aware that I will meet with the kids this time so that I can use this half-hour to quickly scan through developments.

I'll have a quick descent of the podcast just to ensure that I'm kept abreast of the industry developments. I think events is a bit harder during COVID time because everything is virtual. I mean, you could still attend events virtually and multitask, but I try not to do that because it takes away the value of events per se.

[Qin En 22:07]

True. True. Okay. So pyments, is that just payments without an A?

[Chek 22:10]

Yes, that's right.

[Qin En 22:12]

Okay. What other podcast or book recommendations do you have for us?

[Chek 22:16]

Book recommendations? This book is something that I have on my shelf ever since I joined Stripe. This book is called The Global Payments Textbooks. So at least for me, when I first joined Stripe payments, it were a very kind of like intimidating subject for me.

But one of the best things that Stripe and my peers recommended was that here's kind of like material you should try to digest when you have the time. It was literally a textbook. Like it really likes global payments. But I find it super useful and I find it really interesting that a company would give you an external material. I'll recommend you get through so that you could like digest the point that before you dive into it, per se.

[Qin En 22:50]

Maybe I should check that out for myself, but I write for a job. Cool. So I guess looking back at this exciting past seven years of being a parent, what do you think has fundamentally changed in your life since being a parent?

[Chek 23:08] 

Time for yourself definitely has changed. For me, being a parent is something that you do need to give energy and commitment in time. It's not something that is just a concept on paper when you spend time with your family. That's all you need to do you prioritize other activities in your life? In the past, I used to be really keen on organizing outings with my friends from college, or like even hanging out with extended relatives, cousins per se, but we're family.

I think you do need to be mindful that you do need to focus this time, not to neglect your friends per se, because they understand, but really to reach it, that kind of priority per se. It's almost like if you have a timetable, you do need to give 80% to your family now because they are the ones, the young ones they need you. 

And these are precious moments. Actually, this is quite interesting on my first, I don't know, official day at Stripe. I went for company event like dinner, cause that was offsite. And I sat next to a senior because she's very seasoned and payments. She started earlier than me. And she was asking me if I'm a parent and what was my experiences.

So I replied to her the days are long, but years are short. And interestingly, she told me that it was the handler of the Instagram profile as well. So we connected as parents and the company has to become like an official mentor to me too. It's true. The days are long but the years are short. So if you don’t optimize time to be family now, it would just slip by unknowingly.

It sounds like cliche, but I do realize they want to look at my kids today, I actually sometimes try to recall what happened during a certain age that they are. Like what they did when they first walk or when they threw something unintentionally. Like these things kept coming back to my mind that I wish I could have an even deeper memory of that.

[Qin En 24:45] 

Yeah. It's so true. I mean, for me, my daughter is 20 months old now and I even struggled to remember what happened a year ago. I have to use photos and videos to remember, but you are so true to the fact that the days are long, but the years are short and time just passes by so, so quickly. 

This has been a really enlightening and a very fun conversation Chek. But for parents who are thinking about potentially applying to Stripe, joining Stripe, especially if they're going to have a new born soon or planning to have another kid. What would you have to say to them?

[Chek 25:16] 

I would say Stripe really has a strong kind of supportive network for parents. We, as payments, are a fast moving company. We work fast. We work hard. But we definitely want you to put your family first because if you can't perform for a family, it's hard to perform best for the road that you have at Stripe. 

So rest assured that there are many, many like-minded parents at Stripe in APEC globally as well that you have a network you can count on.

[Qin En 25:41]

That's beautiful. And I think you are a textbook example of that. So for yourself, if there's one lesson you have learned as a parent in tech, what would that be?

[Chek 25:48]

I will go back to my earlier expression, do not be shy or afraid to let people know that you're a parent. I think once you make that norm, people are very respectful.

Of the boundaries or the time blocks that they need to be mindful of when they reach out to you. And because of that, then everyone has a mutual understanding of the fact that because as a parent, you do have the minds at home that you need to attend to. And this is something that I am often very appreciative of. 

And I'll end off if this, like, even my manager right now, he often would tell us that, “Hey, if you need to take a call and to go while you pick up the kids, that's totally fine as well.”

So I think this is just an estimation of the flexibility we have to ensure that you perform your best. And while you also take care of your best and your family per se.

[Qin En 26:30] 

That's beautifully said. Well, Chek. If some of the listeners are listening to this would like to connect with you. How can they do so?

[Chek 26:40] 

And you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. You can search my full name, Cheng Chek Lim. I believe my handle is Chek Republic. If I'm not wrong. C-h-e-k Republic. So feel free to ping me on LinkedIn. I'll be happy to connect.
 

[Qin En 26:48] 

Sure. Very good. Yeah. I put the profile on the show notes. But thank you so much for taking time out to chat today, Chek. This was a really enjoyable conversation.

[Chek 26:56]

Thanks to you, man. And it was great talking to you too.

[Qin En 27:00]

Thanks for listening to the Parents in Tech Podcast with me, your host, Qin En. We hope you were inspired on how to raise kids and build companies. To catch up on earlier episodes or stay updated with upcoming ones head over to www.parents.fm to join our community of parents in tech. There, you can also drop me a question, idea, feedback, or suggestion. Once again, the website, it's www.parents.fm. That's all for this episode, folks.

See you next time.