Transcript

00:06
Qin En
Hi, I am Qin En, and this is the Parents in Tech podcast. Welcome to Season One, where we interview mums who are technology company leaders based in Southeast Asia. We want to hear stories, hopes, challenges, and tips from moms who are raising kids while pursuing their career aspirations. In this episode, we speak to Michele, Chief Strategy Officer of SEEK Asia. SEEK is a $12 billion tech company headquartered in Australia with presence in 18 countries. It is most well known in Southeast Asia for two leading brands JobStreet and JobsDB, the number one job search engines in Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Indonesia, and Thailand. Prior to SEEK, Michele spent 14 years at McKinsey & Company. Most of which with the tech, media and telecoms practice. Michele lives a very full life. She and her husband Stefan lead a dual career lifestyle whilst raising their two children. Chloe, age 10, and Arnaud, age 7. And still finds the time for sports, reading and investments. Hi, Michele, welcome to the Parents in Tech show. Thanks for joining us. To start off with, could you tell us a bit more about your family?

01:23
Michele
Thank you for having me today. I'm Michele. I just turned 40 and I'm married to Stefan who, like me, is from Belgium. And we have two children born in Malaysia. My daughter just turned ten few days ago. And my son is 7. They are both in school. Thankfully, back to physical schooling and we're enjoying life in Malaysia.

01:43
Qin En
Awesome, Michele. Thanks for sharing that. Now, what brought you and your family to Malaysia?

01:48
Michele
Oh, Malaysia is a very long story for me. I came to Malaysia almost 30 years ago when I was 10. My dad was here for his work. He used to work at the Belgian embassy. I grew up here for 7 years. My parents stayed on, I went back to study, came back every summer on holidays to be with my family. When I had an opportunity with my first job, I signed on immediately because they said I could get to go back to Southeast Asia. So, I came back 17 years ago together with my husband that I met during my studies in Belgium. And then the kids were just born here. They had no choice.

02:22
Qin En
Wow. That's crazy. Tell me a bit more about what drew you back to Malaysia? Because especially after your studies, I'm sure you had plenty of options. The world's your oyster. What led you back here?

02:32
Michele
During my studies, I actually went to Latin America. Chile, Santiago to be precise. Because I was super passionate about Latin American continent, Spanish, the music, everything about it. But what I realized was what a masculine society Latin America was. I realized that actually, as a woman, I felt a lot more comfortable in Asia. I felt like Asia was a very vibrant economy. You can do so much. Everything is growing so fast. It's very safe unlike some places in Latin America. It's got incredible diversity. The food is amazing. People are amazing. And it was kind of home. My parents were still here back then. They then moved on and then they came back. But Malaysia is where I grew up and I love Southeast Asia. And I wanted to come back at any cost.

03:22
Qin En
So do you love the weather?

03:24

Michele

Oh, yes.

03:25

Qin En

You do? Wow. Okay.

03:27
Michele
Of course. As a European, I love the weather. I do like the heat. I don't go and stand in the sun at noon time, but I love the fact that, we are in December and I can still go on my daily walk every morning. I have become a bit more Malaysian on that side. But yes, I still love the weather every single day.

03:46
Qin En
I wish I could relate to that, but I definitely do miss the cold weather. Because I guess I have a little different way. I love taking walks in the cold. But yeah, I think growing up there, you probably got your fair share of that. Now Michele, how do you explain your job to your children?

04:02
Michele
That used to be extremely hard because I used to work at McKinsey & Company for 14 years. And that was very difficult. The few times that I brought my children to our office parties like Halloween party and the Christmas party where we had clowns, they were like, “Mom, this is your job? You have candies all over and chocolate all over? This is your job?” Other time I brought them in and we were all building Legos. And the office had bought these massive Lego sets. And they were like, “So you basically come to the office and build Lego sets, right?” Today I work at SEEK, which is the company that owns JobStreet, JobsDB, Jora and SEEK. And we're across Southeast Asia. That is much easier because I basically tell them, “We are a website like Google, where you can go and look for a job and we help people find jobs.”

04:54
Michele
And what's interesting is that our nanny's daughter found her job on JobStreet. So, it's much easier now for me to tell my child. Like, “See, our nanny's daughter, who is an engineer in the Philippines, that's where she found her job. That's what I do. I help people find jobs and I help companies find talent.” That's much easier.

05:14
Qin En
That's awesome. It's so simple, but yet so important and can be quite a challenge, right? I mean, literally that's why SEEK became such a successful company. But maybe let's take a step back and let's talk about the time when you first welcomed your kids, Chloe and Arnaud into the world. That was when you were at McKinsey, your career was on the rise. How did you feel? How did you handle that? Was that a period that was stressful? What do you remember about that period 8-10 years back?

05:39
Michele
I always knew I wanted to be a mom. And I always knew that I wanted to be a very present mom. So coming out of university, a lot of friends went and just joined some big companies at the bottom of the ladder and would go one by one. I actually said that I can't do that. I need something where I kind of fast forward pretty quickly because I want to achieve something important in my career before the age of 30 or at least before I have kids. Because I said that it's going to be much easier for me to go back to work after having kids, including if I decide to take a break or something. If I've achieved a lot, I'll always be welcomed back in the workforce. But if I'm just an ordinary profile before I have kids, then it's going to be more difficult.

06:27
Michele
I don't know why, but I had that belief in my head that as a woman, I didn't have the time to take my time like other men had. And I wanted to kind of trailblaze. So, I guess some of the men were like, “Oh my God, she's so career minded” and blah blah. Thankfully my husband didn't think that. So when I was pregnant, it was a big question. And McKinsey was a great company for that. It really encouraged you to have a lot of conversations. They connected me with lots of other women that had children and were consultants, partners, senior partners in the firm and how they do it. McKinsey even has a book about McKinsey moms. So, you have all these tips and tricks and it covers everything from how do you breastfeed while traveling and send your milk back to your baby, how do you plan your, what we call, ramp up ramp down going in and out of maternity, et cetera. The one thing that McKinsey also had was that, when you are client facing as a consultant, you are expected to be at your client’s 4-5 days a week. When I had my daughter, I was 30. And I decided that I didn't want to be traveling 4-5 days a week. I wanted to wake up with my children most days and I wanted to be putting them to bed on most days. So, I was actually going to look for another job. A senior partner from the firm called me and said, “Hey, I'm taking over the tech media and telecoms practice in McKinsey. And I need an engagement manager who can help me turn it around and grow the practice and all of that and transform it.” And I thought, well, that sounds like a great thing. It's exactly what I do for clients.

08:05
Michele
Except I do it for ourselves internally. I get to work with amazing people that I love working with. My boss at that time said, “Well, just kind of establish what needs to be done. And then you work when you want, where you want, how you want. I don't care. As long as you deliver, as long as we are in agreement, the rest is all your choices”. And this was 10 years ago. So, I started my hybrid model that everyone has been struggling with. I started 10 years ago and the office had asked me like, “We need you to have a room. We need you to have a proper office with a printer, a shredder, an internet connection.” So, I had all of that set up for myself and I was working from home. I had very flexible hours. I could continue to breastfeed at the time, at least for the first few months, et cetera. That was amazing because the firm was extremely flexible. Obviously, I was flexible with the firm as well. I was working late hours sometimes, sometimes taking very late calls. But then I could also take some time back during the day and arrange it to my child's schedule as well. That's how I thought about it 10 years ago.

09:11
Qin En
Wow. That is so incredible to know that you had such a supportive environment, infrastructure, superiors that really made this happen. I think you've mentioned something that was very interesting, which was the intentionality that when you graduated, you wanted to go all out and reach some level of success and achievement before you became a mom. So when you first became a mom, did you feel like you have reached the point? What were your thoughts then?

09:36
Michele
When I was 21, I joined this company where I was selling egg powders for the food industry, but also for the beverage industry. All these protein shakes and all of that for your muscles. I was selling phosphate bits for the pharmaceutical industry and lysozyme, which is an egg protein. When I was 22, I set up the first regional office for that company here in Kuala Lumpur. I was taking care of Southeast Asia, Australia, New Zealand. So, that wasn't too bad for a 22-year-old to be given such an opportunity, which is why I find that smaller companies sometimes give you larger opportunities. But then you kind of expect people to be telling you what to do. You've got to be the self-starter, the driver, go out and all of that. I did that for a couple of years. I grew the turnover by 50%.

10:24
Michele
I recruited agents, distributors. I trained people, went along to visit clients, et cetera. So, that was great. Then I joined McKinsey when I was, I think, 25. And with McKinsey, I traveled a lot in Southeast Asia. I worked a lot in Jakarta, Philippines, Malaysia, a bit of Singapore and Kuala Lumpur. And again, as a consultant in McKinsey, you get so much exposure and all that. Yes, I think I had achieved quite a bit by the time I had reached 30. Obviously, you can always achieve more. Actually, there was a moment where I was kind of waiting for a promotion before I would start family. And my promotion did get delayed. At that time, I went like, “You know what? Just forget about it. I'm just going to go ahead and put my family first”, because people kept on saying, “Wait until you’re first promoted before you have kids.” People that meant well. But at some point, you can't always wait for your career to happen before you have your family happen. So, I went ahead and were pretty lucky because were pretty quick to have our first child. And then the promotion happened and all of that. It's true that we can't always wait for our career to reach a certain stage because there will always be the next stage.

11:38
Qin En
I completely echo with that. There's always something else, right? Like you mentioned, there's always another achievement to get, another promotion, another company to be part of. At the end of the day, family can’t wait for moms. There's also a biological clock. Unfortunate, but that's what we got to do. So, I'm really glad to hear that that was your story of how you transitioned, you overcame that and decided to go ahead. And hey, everything worked out well. But maybe let's dive back to your first job. Because I think to be essentially a market launcher, to set something up, to have all that responsibility, it's something that I'm sure many of the people who are listening to our podcast, whether their dads, their moms, or they’re not even parents would love to get the chance. How did the opportunity come up for you?

12:16
Michele
It was just a small company that I knew through friends and family, et cetera. I knew that they were doing most of the work on the export market. Because I wanted to go back and work internationally, I applied. It's the kind of company, they were very small. You didn't have super interesting CVs coming and saying, “I want to work for you.” And suddenly they're like, “Who is this person who wants to work for us?” I think they were initially surprised, but they also gave me a lot of leeway to shape it. Because I could shape my journey, I could set priorities, I was reporting to the CEO for two years. And then as we grew, I reported to the CEO minus one. It gave me a lot of leeway. That's why I do sometimes say, it's not bad at all to start with smaller companies where you get to experiment into everything. Because I used to do everything from accounting to strategy, to sales, to training, to secretary, to working with the tax agents and working with the accountants. It was a good experience, but it was with a company that was profitable, a company that had running revenues. So, it wasn't fully from scratch either. But it just gives you a lot of opportunities.

13:28
Qin En
Truly. It's pretty much like the value of starting your own thing. I think one thing that stands out, Michele, as I'm speaking to you on this, is that clearly you are a self-starter. I think that's something that really helped you to get where you are, not waiting to be told what to do, but really thinking and taking ownership of the business. I think that's something that would be good advice for all of the parents listening to this. Let's fast forward a little to the time when, of course, you work on both your children and your work. Tell us what was it like to raise the kids in Malaysian, Asian culture? Of course, the culture is not foreign to you, but were there any surprises?

14:03
Michele
No, I think for me raising my kids in Asia and in Malaysia specifically is really a gift. First of all, because Malaysia and Southeast Asia is a geography where you have a lot of opportunities in terms of creating a system that works at home. So, we do have a nanny. We would not be able to have a nanny working with us in some of the other geographies, like in Europe or in Australia and all of that. So, that is tremendous. In a way, I don't think I would be able to do the jobs that I do and the responsibilities that I have to take, if I didn't know that I have someone at home who is basically running the house and making sure that everything runs, that I don't have to worry about dinner, did somebody show up at the bus when the kids came back at 3 o'clock and stuff like that.

14:57
Michele
So, the most surprising thing? I'm not sure. I think the most surprising is maybe the variety of schools or philosophies of parenting you find around you. Because in a way, if you are in your own country and maybe this is how Malaysians feel, but if you were in your own country, everyone around you tells you, “This is how you have to raise your kids”, “This is the culture”, and “This is what you do. And this is what you don't do.” But being here and seeing how maybe the Chinese do it, like the whole confinement, seeing how the Malay confinement works, seeing how the Australians do it and these guys do it, and those guys do it, and the French do it, I kind of had a melting pot. For example, I did hypnobirth, I did water birth. But then I had a doula who is a Canadian doula. I had a wonderful Malay lady coming and doing the post-delivery. Just the massage part, not the food part. And it was nice. Because I had all this melting pot of what I thought was the best of all the cultures that fit for me and for my child. And that was kind of cool.

16:04
Qin En
It is. It's like a buffet. Like your exact guess. You know what's there, you have different people to ask and go through the experience. And then it's almost pick and choose what you like. Michele, you mentioned about hypnobirth and waterbirth. Wow. Maybe let's start off first with introducing what these two are and what led you to decide to go to these two methods?

16:24
Michele
Hypnobirth is basically a relaxation method to help you through birth and labor. And to help you go through it in an unmedicated way. So no medication, no epidural, no gas, none of that. Water birth is giving birth in water, which obviously automatically implies no epidural and none of that as well. So, the two often go together. How I went in there was a bit funny because I was a consultant. I was working my head off and I didn't have time for these things. But I knew that you have to take these classes for preparation to giving birth. I figured, okay, what do I do? My best friend is a very renowned French naturopath in Singapore. I was like, “I need to sign up for these things.” She already had one child and she said, “Oh, go for hypnobirth. It's really cool.” I was like, “Okay.” And at that time, I didn't know what it was.

17:20
Michele
So, I started googling. And she said, “Take a doula for your birth.” I was like, okay, she's my best friend. So, I fully trust her. So, I started googling ‘Hypnobirth Doula Kuala Lumpur’. And I fall on this lady and I see that she’s starting a hypnobirthing class, which is a pretty long thing. It was like an 8 or 12 week stuff. 8 weeks. I go like, “Hey, I want to sign up. How much is this?” I was like, “Oh, that's a little much, but okay. I want to sign up. When do we start?” And she said, “We start Saturday.” So we just show up with my husband a little bit late. We even missed the little intro at the beginning. My husband, I just pulled him. I said, “You need to come. This is the birthing classes. We need to do this for 8 weeks.”

18:03
Michele
So, we get in there. And then she starts explaining what hypnobirth is. I'm like, “What did I sign up for? No medication, no epidural. Just relax and reap the baby out?” I was like, “Are you kidding me?” And then at the end of the session, she showed us some videos of women giving birth using hypnobirth. I felt so betrayed because I was 30. I had no idea that you could give birth without being in pain, without crying, shouting and yelling. None of it looked like what you are seeing in the hospital scenes on the TV, the movies and none of all the horror stories that everybody tells you about. I came out of there and I was really angry with the world that somebody had not told me about this thing. Then we did this whole hypnobirth course. I had my first hypnobirth with Chloe which went very well. It did take a while, but it went well in the end. My second birth with Arnaud was amazing, and that was water birth. So that was unbelievable. I always say I would have 10 more of those if I didn't have to be pregnant 10 times and if I didn't have to pay for the education 10 times.

19:25
Qin En
Wow. This is incredible. Within the first session of the hypnobirth course, it changed your mind completely.

19:31

Michele

Yes.

19:32

Qin En

It's true. Even when I think about the whole delivery process, I remember it was just slightly a year ago. It was painful for my wife and she was under epidural. This is incredible. But I guess it takes practice. So, tell me what happened over the 8 weeks? Because I'm sure it's not the kind of thing that I can say, “Michele, you got to relax.” And then you just relax.

19:50
Michele
The 8 weeks are actually about undoing a lot of what has been put into your brain over the last 30 years. I was lucky because my mom also delivered the three of us without any medication. She was always for natural birth and all of that. So, let me just put it this way. We are the only mammals in this entire planet who have to have a hospital be going through the fear of giving birth, all the shouting, all these doctors around you, pulling the baby out and everybody's shouting. A lot of the 8 weeks is about making you realize that a lot of this is constructed. And you've got to start deconstructing all these frames of mind, peeling them away and actually realizing. Every single class has a lot of videos. There's a movie called ‘Orgasmic birth’. And it's all about water birth and hypnobirth.

20:48
Michele
It's a universe. Basically, all my reading became hypnobirth, natural birth, gentle birth, all of these things. And I thought it was fascinating. So, I went into that. And it does take a lot of determination. Because again, we've been built to fear birth. But if you think about it, birth is nothing more natural than having your period or having sex. Obviously, if you're having sex in a very tense way, or if you're having a lot of stress for your period, it's going to be very painful. It's called rape. But if you are relaxed, if you're enjoying the moment, breathing and relaxing, then you just open up and the baby just comes out. And it's just incredible. So, I recommend it to everyone.

21:34
Qin En
Some of the people who are hearing this would miss this out. But I see the huge smile you have on your face as you recount this experience. Like, yep. Okay, that's a mental note. If I do plan to have a second child, would certainly ask my wife to consider that. But I think, Michele, you hit on something that was so true. Like so many times we are almost like prisoners of the stereotypes, the beliefs that are policed on us rightly or wrongly, I would love to hear what's one of these stereotypes or status quos, especially by moms that you reject?

22:06
Michele
Well, one of it is probably that the mom can do a professional career and have kids at the same time, that she necessarily has to either be a good mom or a good professional. So, that I reject. I think you can have both. What I think you can't is try to be the perfect housewife and the perfect professional. In my case, the whole house part has been outsourced to our nanny. She's amazing. She's the reason why I can work. That's what I told my CEO last week. Because she's going to basically take care of the household things like, cleaning, ironing, washing, cooking, and these kinds of things like deliveries, groceries, et cetera. That comes with a huge amount of trust, obviously. But if she can do all of that, then I can focus on my job at work and my investments, because I also do a lot of our family investments.

23:03
Michele
And of course, I'm doing a lot of my children duties and all of that. It's like I woke up every night for my children. My nannies never did. I take care of my children when it comes to stuff like school, et cetera. Now, of course, I don't mind a hand for breakfast duty, et cetera. But I gave most of their evening baths, et cetera. When we have home-schooling, I've always had a home-schooling duty. I didn't have people coming in. My choice has been very clear that I will outsource the housing part. My helper will also care for my children on the hours that I'm at work. But if I'm not at work, then I'm with them. And on weekends we have no helper. It's just us. Because I'm not working, then we split duties with my husband. So, we will cook together. We'll clean together. We'll do dishes. But I think you can absolutely be a successful working woman and a mother, but you can't do everything. That's where this idea of outsourcing maybe what you care a bit less about or splitting tasks with your husband.

24:11
Qin En
Yeah. I think that's so true. It's almost like what is good enough. But I think beyond just delegating a task, Michele, I'm sure there were moments where there was something at work. How do you not carry it to the time that you spend with your family? Because especially whether in your current role as the Chief Strategy Officer or right back in consulting, there are always things, there are always problems. There are always fires to put out and that can be so consuming at times. So, how do you create and, I would say, almost set those boundaries?

24:38
Michele
At McKinsey, I had pretty clear boundaries when it came. My EA knew that I would take calls as early as 07:00 or 07:30 in the morning up to about 6 o'clock. From 06:00 to 09:00, I didn't take calls. And then 9:00 PM onwards, I'd go back online. If I had fires and stuff, then I would say, “Listen, I'll be back online. I'll take care of it when I'm back online.” That did mean I was often working until past midnight, but at least my 06:00 to 09:00 was protected. There were also moments like, if I had to like take my daughter somewhere, et cetera, then I would just arrange to do it. I would either take maybe calls on my way there or back. I try not to have calls when my children are in the car because then I can’t be with them.

25:24
Michele
Then I think it's fine to tell your kids, “Hey, I've got a big problem at work that's on my mind.” It's of no use hiding it from them. You can say, “Well, I'm going to do this with you now, et cetera, I'm going to be with you, yeah. But I have this thing on my mind.” Everybody has stuff on their mind regardless of whether it's work or not. SEEK is a very lifestyle friendly tech company, one of the few. And we are extremely good about boundaries for families, for hobbies or just having a personal life. In my three months, I have never had to do a lot of those rapid fire fighting, et cetera. Because we tend to be pretty well-organized and I haven't had to do that yet.

26:03
Qin En
Michele, tell us, how do you find the time for reading, trekking, yoga and so many other things in your life?

26:10
Michele
So, there's a couple of things. One is, I used to do a lot of sports and I used to have a lot of hobbies as a teenager and as a student. When I started working a lot, that part really took a hit. I had moments where I would be fit and then moments where I would not be fit. And I had moments where I was fit. But my husband is extremely fit. I mean, he's now a holistic health coach. I was thinking like, this guy is literally addicted to running and to sports. Because if he doesn't do it, he gets in a bad mood and stuff like that. I was like, well, you know what? If you can get addicted to negative stuff like coffee or alcohol or cigarettes or drugs, there must be a way that you can also get addicted to the positive stuff.

26:53
Michele
There was a year where I basically said that I would do something. I would move in some way every single day, no matter what, 30 to 60 minutes a day. The best time to do that for me is, as soon as I wake up, I just put on sports clothes and I don't get out of them until it's done. So, eventually you have to obviously get out. I usually try to either walk, jog, do something or do yoga in the morning for about an hour. And then I start work. Reading is usually in the evenings. I try to turn my phone to airplane mode as soon as I can in the evenings and then just leave it in and read myself off to bed. There's one thing that I also found very helpful is that whenever you say, “I don't have time for this or that”, try to change that for “It is not a priority for me to do that.”

27:47
Michele
Like, “I don't have time to run or do sports.” Just say like, “It is not priority for me to be healthy and fit and well in my mind.” And then you're like, “Oh wait, no. What is the priority?” Then you make that the priority. Because at the end of the day, an hour of your day is 4% of that day. So, we spent so much time at work. We must find time. And McKinsey, because it was quite tough for me to find the timing, I started these walking, talking calls. Because one time my senior partner in Stockholm was like, “Hey, I don't have time for workout today. Do you mind if I walk during this call?” And I thought, if a senior partner in McKinsey can do this, I can do this. So, every morning, I set up my 07:30 to 08:30 open for calls and meetings, except that people were notified that I would be walking during that time.

28:40
Michele
And sometimes I'd be walking two hours. I do my calls with California, Texas, New York and Australia all in the morning. That was like two hours. I was walking like 12K around my neighborhood and getting a lot of work done and coming back and feeling fresh and energized. Because again, sports give you these endorphins and these feel-good feelings that you need to kick off your day. That's how I managed to fit all of that into my day. And I hope that maybe some of the tips can help some of the listeners.

29:11
Qin En
That's wonderful. I think it's almost like once again, setting a set a time and creating the discipline, I like the part where you say you would wear sports clothes and it's almost like you just got to get around to doing it. I think the hardest part is always about building the habit. Once you get past that initial hurdle, I'm sure now, if you stop moving, you'll feel a lot more uncomfortable than the other way around.

29:34
Michele
Yes. I'm officially addicted.

29:36
Qin En
Yeah. And also, the walks. It's like at the same time, when you walk on calls, the calls don't feel that long, which may or may not be a good thing. It just sounds like a great balance considering how much time, especially since COVID, we planted our butts on our chairs, I think that's good advice that we can all follow.

29:52
Michele
Yeah. Or I take that time to listen to podcasts or I take that time to meet with a lot of people. Because I don't have time to do these lunches with the ladies, coffee mornings and dinners and all of that. Because either I'm working or I'm with the kids, et cetera. So on Wednesday morning, I'm walking with the CEO of La Juiceria, and another friend of mine who is building an e-commerce platform. So, I also tried to actually make use of these precious time to meet people to exchange, just to catch up socially with my friends. Some days I walk with my parents who also live in KL. Then that kind of gives me time with my parents. There are ways of making very good use of the time.

30:38
Qin En
So, Michele, I'm curious. In terms of the way that you communicate and thinking about bringing up both Arnaud and Chloe, how are you thinking about that? Because you are in a place where it's a hot pot of cultures. There are so many buffet options to choose from. What were some of the things that you picked and chose?

30:54
Michele
I think it's important for my children to grow up with this example that a woman can work and a woman can hold quite important responsibilities, et cetera. That was something important. I was already working partly out of financial necessity. But a friend of mine who was not working because her husband was on an expat package, with very good conditions, she wasn't working. And at some point, because her kids were a bit grown up and they were starting to go to school and she was getting a bit bored and she thought, oh, maybe I can find myself a job. And she had two daughters. She told her daughters, “Hey, how would you feel about mama going back to work?” And the daughters? They laughed it off. They were like, “But moms don't work. Only dads work.” So I always had to work partly out of financial necessity, but I actually find it extremely important.

31:49
Michele
Maybe even more so as an expat that I work, that I set this example. And I do get it from my daughter. Sometimes she goes like, “Why are you one of the only ones that I know that works?” Or like, “All my friends, none of their moms work.” And I have to explain to them that they do also work, except that there are more of like charities and pro bono things, but they all work.” Because I think that's an important role model that you set both for the girls and the boys. My boy also sees his own dad taking fatherly duties, reading books to bed, helping with the bath, being there for these moments as well. It's not just that only the mother or only the father that does either one. We have a dual career family and we have a dual parenting family as well.

32:38
Qin En
That's beautiful. That's the truest meaning of the word ‘Partnership’ with you and your husband splitting both, not just the career and the financial aspects of it, but even also raising kids. So, tell me, Michele. How did you and your husband think about parenting duties, responsibilities, and not just in terms of tasks but even, I would say, the principles and things that you want to teach the children?

32:59

Michele

I do most of the parenting reading in the couple. And I guess I talked to him about things and he, I guess, agrees. Sometimes he disagrees. We also did one course together, which is called ‘The Positive Parenting’. There was this lady running workshops here. So, we went for 5-6 weeks of workshops or even more. Maybe it was also another 8 or 10 workshops. But it's interesting because sometimes as a couple, you have conflicts because of how the children are behaving or raising. So, if your child doesn't finish his plate, what do you do? I was raised to finish my plate, so was he. On this very particular example, I won’t force my kids to finish their plates. I will ask them to serve smaller servings, start with small and then, help themselves again. I won't force them to eat something that they really dislike because I think that takes away a lot of the joy from eating. For example, I might ask them, “Hey, what do you want for veggies tonight? You have three choices. But before we prepare it, once it's prepared, you've got to eat it because you've asked for it.” We do make them participate in some choices. Obviously, it's not open. It's not like, “Oh, what do you want? Oh, if I don't have it in the fridge, I'll rush out to the supermarket.” No, it's within what we have, what would you prefer? Like we have principles. You have to have your proteins. You have to have your veggies and you have to have a bit of carbs.

34:20
Michele
If they don't fully finish because they're satisfied, I'll be okay with it. I had to work my husband on it, but he's okay. So, you just got to talk it out. You've just got to agree on where you agree, where you disagree. We have a lot of things we agree on. Like, we try not to medicate too much. So, we tried to go the natural way as much as possible. Obviously, if you have an appendicitis, you check into the hospital, you get your surgery done. If you have little bit of fever, pre COVID of course, you're not going to completely rush to the hospital just because of that. So, talk it out, read a couple of maybe books, agree on a couple of principles. And then I think it still goes on case by case.

35:05
Qin En
Yeah. I like the part where you mentioned about joint activities together, whether it's about reading books or you’re attended courses together, I think that creates that space to have these conversations. Because sometimes at least for myself also, I find that it's almost that you can't get caught up with the daily operations or day-to-day running that you miss out on those deeper conversations. So, I completely agree with you. Taking the time to set aside.

35:27
Michele
Yeah. That course actually was also very interesting because they have this concept of family council. When we were doing the course, were very particular about holding our family council meeting every week where we would discuss issues as a family. And it was very interesting because for example, we would say, “Well, we have an issue with the fact that we have been late for the bus 5 days this week.” Then we kind of put it on the table and then we have to problem solve as a family. You've got like 5-year-old kids. I mean, my son was 5-years-old, my daughter was 8. They're contributing to ideas. They're like, “Well, maybe we should choose our clothes the night before.” It's like, “Okay, we take note. We're going to do that.” And “Maybe we should put the alarm clock a bit earlier.” Because then they come up with the solutions.

36:16
Michele
Now, it sounds great when I talk about it like that. In practice, it's still a bit of hell every now and then. So, we are less particular about the weekly family council, but we still do it every once in a while, when we have something that we need to discuss. Sometimes it's funny because it's my son who is now 7. He will go like, “We need a family council to discuss this.” Then we say, “Okay, what's the issue we need to solve?” Then everybody kind of comes together and we agree on boundaries. It could be iPad timing, because we used to have a rule that no iPad before afternoon on weekends. So, at some point he disagreed with us. So, we discussed it and we agreed within certain conditions to review it, et cetera. So, we problem solve together.

37:02
Qin En
That's wonderful. I think it's not the frequency, but the fact that it's already so ingrained in your son that at 7, if there are issues, he knows that the way to solve it is to talk it out. And I think that practice is healthy. Sometimes it's hard, especially for kids to feel like they have a voice to speak out. But what you're doing to lead them and equip them with that ability to communicate openly, I think that's just something that I'm taking note of as well.

37:27
Michele
Yeah. You might find it nice, but there are also a lot of people who would criticize that. I also get a lot of people who say, “No, you are the adult in the house. You choose and you decide everything. Your child is a child and has to just do what he or she is being told.” When you raise a child's critical thinking, you also got to face it. You're going to get some hard truth in your face as well, where they're going to come and say, “Well, what about this?” and “Why don't you do that?” et cetera, et cetera. For example, we are trying to be as strict as possible around screen time. Of course, they have some screen time, but it's limited, et cetera. But then he will come to me. He says, “I think we've got to talk about your screen time because you're spending way too much time on that phone. And you've already spent your day on your computer, mom. We've got to discuss this because it's not working.” So then, of course we have to have of a mirror in front of you and face what you have built as a little monster. But I always find it ironic that, “We want to build the leaders of tomorrow and critical thinkers of tomorrow. But please do not have an opinion until you're 18”, and all of that. So, I don't think that works. I think critical thinkers and leaders are raised from when they're small. Of course, it doesn't mean disrespecting your parents and all of that, but you are entitled to have an opinion and to argue for it, et cetera. So, we have long arguments sometimes.

38:52
Qin En
Well, it's all a part of the great process. But I think, Michele, you touched on such a real point, which is sometimes the view that I think a lot of parents have, but I also disagree. It's almost like the parent is always right. I think it's important to let our children know that we are all human. We are sometimes imperfect. And hey, dad and mom also do make mistakes. And just as how when they make mistakes, we expect them to own it, to correct it and apologize. I think it should be the same for us. But I know there is of course a camp of parent who believe that, “No, you should never apologize to your children. It's the authority that you have.” That's always almost like an interesting balance to think of. Michele, I love to hear it in terms of disciplining your children and building that in them, what are some ways that you have experimented with, what worked, and what didn't work?

39:39
Michele
Well, what definitely didn't work, and again, I don't criticize any parenting method because you've really got to find what works with you, for you, for your family and your child. I've always been much more on the gentle parenting, positive parenting side. I think I tried maybe for three minutes to let my child cry to sleep. I didn't manage that. I have absolutely no disrespect for parents who managed to do that method. And I hear great things about it. Like, “My brother did it. He swears by it.” It's just not me. I just can't do that. So I think as you were saying, it's like a buffet or you could call it a supermarket. You've got to find what fits you and what fits your family. For me, it's really been these principles. I read a lot about gentle birthing, gentle parenting. It wasn't gentle sleep, but it was something like it as well.

40:31
Michele
We didn't co-sleep in the same bed, but my child was always in our bedroom for the first year because I was still breastfeeding. I would breastfeed on demand until a certain age. Then we had a bit of a schedule, but I'm not 100% there. It's not like, “Oh, you eat whenever you want, whatever you want. You sleep whenever you want.” But at the beginning you have to go with the flow, set a cadence. After a while with my daughter, it was just, food or milk would be 8, 12, 4, 8, midnight, and the next day 8. So, it came on its own. My second one was a bit more of a nightmare. Very difficult to have regular hours and all of that. We had to go with the flow and that every child is going to be different as well.

41:15
Michele
My first one was sleeping from 11:00 PM to 6:00 AM every day. Since she was 3-4 weeks old, she was a great eater, a great sleeper. She was an amazing baby. I was thinking, what are all these people complaining about? It's just about connecting with your child. Then I had my second child and he would only sleep during the day, he'd wake up every single hour and stay awake for a while at night. That's when I understood why some moms throw their kids out of the window. Because they literally go crazy. I had a very easy baby and a tougher baby. The good news is that in the end, they will become good people. They don't stay terrible their entire life, but some babies can be much tougher than others. Just hang in there, find what works for you. Take advice from different people. But don't apply things that I think are against your own instinct as a mom or as a dad and don't work for you. So, everyone will have advice. Just like in a supermarket, everybody wants to sell you stuff, but at the end you have to choose what works for you and what you like.

42:22
Qin En
That's a beautiful way. Truly, there's so much variety in front of us. But I think with the right mindset, it's not a FOMO, “I want to do everything”, “I want to get the best of everything”, but to pick, select and choose wisely. Michele, if there's one thing you learned as a parent in tech, what would that be?

42:37
Michele
The one lesson would be really having your system. Like any working parent in a bit unpredictable or high responsibility jobs, have your system, have your village. I think it's an African saying that, ‘It takes a village to raise a child.’ The problem is that our modern societies, we used to be in Asia luckily where Malaysians and some of the Chinese and Indians, you guys still live with your maybe grandparents and all that. So, you have a system and people can take care of your children at moments where you can't. And you have this economy of scale. But if you are going to live on your own in a modern society type of setup, then you have to create that system that will work. And it could be with a day-care, it could be with a nanny, it could be with your family. But you've got to find a way that when you are at work, you can focus on your work and you can feel like, “Okay, my kids are in a safe pair of hands and I don't need to worry about it.”

43:41
Michele
If I could add a second lesson, find an environment where your family as the priority is understood, shared and nurtured. I've been extremely lucky because at McKinsey, we worked really hard. But if anything happened to my child, I always knew I could drop everything and I could run. At SEEK, equally we are extremely lifestyle friendly. We care about our people having a life, whether you're a parent or not. If you're not a parent, you might have animals, you might have a hobby. But it's important for us that you have an environment that cares about you. That I think is probably another huge lesson. If you're in an environment where you are not cared for as a parent or as an individual in general, then at some point, this isn't going to work out. So, find something that fits you and your family as well. I remember at McKinsey, my family was part of me. Like often we had these parties where kids were invited. When we had my farewell, my whole family was invited to the farewell. When I joined SEEK, when my daughter was hospitalized for appendicitis, they sent her a gift. They care for you. Not just for you, but your family and you as a whole person. Find an environment where that is respected.

45:01
Qin En
That is beautiful. I think that's so important to find a place that can support you to grow professionally and in your personal life. Michele, it’s been such a joy to speak with you. Now, if our listeners would like to connect with you or follow you, how can they best do so?

45:16
Michele
I think LinkedIn would probably be the best as a business social network. Still come to JobStreet and seek for your jobs. But LinkedIn as a network is great. Yeah, it would be great to connect over there.

45:30
Qin En
Great. Well, Michele, thank you so much for the show and we really enjoyed this conversation.

45:35
Michele
Thank you so much.

45:40
Qin En
Thanks for listening to the Parents in Tech podcast with me, your host, Qin En. We hope you were inspired on how to raise kids and built companies. To catch up on earlier episodes or stay updated with upcoming ones, head over to https://www.parents.fm to join our community of parents in tech. There, you can also drop me a question, idea, feedback or suggestion. Once again, the website is https://www.parents.fm. That's all for this episode, folks. See you next time.